A Warning Against Playing Ball Games

[David Ben-Abraham]

B"H

An English translation of the Edict against playing ball games written by the rabbinic court of the city of Rada' (Yemen), under the patronage of the Chief Rabbi and President of the Court, Rabbi Yihye b. Yihye ‘Omeissi. The interesting thing about this Court order is that it clarifies a teaching in the Jerusalem Talmud (Ta'anis 24b) which says that the town of "Tur Simeon" (in Judaea) was destroyed because they were used to playing ball. It does not say what, exactly, this prohibition entails - if, let's say, they were guilty of playing ball on the Sabbath day and the ball would be kicked beyond four-cubits in the public domain, etc. Here, Rabbi Yihye b. Yihye ‘Omeissi, President of the Court at Rada' (Yemen), says the prohibition is an offshoot of a biblical commandment prohibiting Israel to behave like the gentiles in their customs.


Our trust is in the Lo-rd

Unto the holy congregation, may G-d keep them and quicken them, and from all distress and harm deliver them! Amen, may it be His will.

It is not concealed from you, gentlemen, what is written in our holy Law, namely: "Neither shall you conduct yourselves after the mores & manners of the nations, etc." (Lev. 20:23) How have our Sages, of blessed memories, been very stringent in their observance of this law not to do aught that is similar to them! But, now, by reason of our iniquities, the nations have taken upon themselves certain strictures so as not to resemble Israel in any act, while we are seen as acting leniently in this very regard – may G-d forbid! For example, in ball games (Arabic: "al-kurt"), not only do the little ones engage in its play, but also the adults that have been married to women!

May it never be so with the people of G-D to behave themselves after this manner, and to change the enactment of our fathers (who rest in peace) who have warned, nay, have reproved [many] concerning this matter – even on several occasions, while we, after them, have done likewise. But such warnings were never seen as effective except in the very hour [when there was a breach in our laws]. Now there is no custom amongst the holy men of Israel except to heed a given warning, and to accept instruction. Even its name bears witness that it leads to extirpation (i.e. by a play on the Arabic word, "kurt" כֻּרתּ with the Hebrew word "kareth" כָּרֵת – extirpation). Behold, we do hereby now give warning and remind each and every one of you, both great and small, that whosoever there be who will not separate himself from playing ball and shall willfully transgress the enactment of our ancients, let him be singed by their burning coals!
G-d save us from such an ordeal!

And so, may the Omnipresent, blessed be He, be exalted in showing mercy upon you, taking good care over you with a watchful eye, for your own good and welfare, for your prolonged life and for your peace. Amen, so may it be His will. [Written] on this weekly biblical lection of "and it shall be for a blessing." – Gen. 12:2 (Meaning, during the biblical lection of 'Lekh lekha' in Gen. 12:1-17:27) So be the words of the Court. May their Rock and Creator preserve them.

המקור:

מחסינו בה'

הקהל הקדוש הי"ו (השם ישמריהו ויחייהו) ומצו"י (ומכל צרה ונזק יצילהו) אכי"ר (אמן כן יהי רצון). לם יעלם מכם רבותי מה שכתוב בתוה"ק (בתורתנו הקדושה), ולא תלכו בחקות הגוים וכמה החמירו רז"ל (רבותינו זכרונם לברכה) שלא להדמות להם. והן עתה בעונותינו, האומות מחמירים מלהדמות לישראל בשום מעשה, ואנחנו מקילים בזה ח"ו (חס וחלילה), כמו לַעְבַּתּ אַלכֻּרְתּ. (משחק כדור) ולא די הקטנים, אלא הגדולים שנשאו נשים. חלילה לעם ה' ללכת בדרך הזה ולהמרות תקנת אבותינו נוחי נפש, שהתרו והוכיחו על זה כמה פעמים ואנחנו אחריהם, ואין האזהרה מועלת אלא בעתה. ואין מנהג ישראל הקדושים אלא לשמוע אזהרה ולקחת מוסר. ושמה מעיד עליה שהיא כָּרֵת. הן עתה אנחנו מזהירים ומזכירים את כל אחד ואחד מכם גדולים וקטנים שכל מי שלא יפרוש מן אלכורת (פי' מן הכדור), ויעבור על תקנת קדמונינו שיכוה בגחלתן רח"ל (רחמנא ליצלן). ובכן המב"ה (והמקום ברוך הוא) ירום לרחמכם, וישגח עליכון בעינא פקיחא, לטב ולחיין אריכין ולשלם אכי"ר (אמן כן יהי רצון). בס' (בסדר) וֶהְיֵה בְּרָכָה. כ"ד (כה דברי) בי"ד (בית דין) יצ"ו (ישמרו צורו ויוצרו).

[David Ben-Abraham]

B"H

One clarification:

The Jerusalem Talmud (Ta'anis 24b) says:
"Tur Simeon used to produce three-hundred jars of fruit conserves (?) in the Summer-time during each week on Sabbath eve. And why was it destroyed? Some say it was on account of lechery. Others say that they used to play ball."

Tur Simeon has been identified by Archaeologist and historical-geographer, Boaz Zisu, as the place known as "Tantura," or what is also called in Arabic Khirbet Sammunieh; Khirbet et Tantura; Khirbet Sammuniya in maps from the British Mandate. It is a small projection, or hill, rising abruptly from the depths of Nahel Soreq, the riverine gulch surrounded by steep acclivities and which runs in a south-westerly direction from Jerusalem towards the plains. The ruin is located not far from the Moshav known as "Nes Harim."

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

See also what Rav Chaim wrote on GlobalYeshiva, about ball playing on Shabbos:

http://www.globalyeshiva.com/profiles/blog/show?id=727216%3ABlogPos...

An excerpt (but there is more):
"The Rama permits moving and playing ball on Shabbos. The Gra explains the Yerushalmi according to the Rama it's referring to the sin of playing ball in a R'Shus Harabim. This the Rama prohibits even within four Amos since it's very probable that it would roll out of the four Amos. The Magen Avraham says that this is only permitted if you're not playing on the floor. But rolling on the floor is prohibited since you'll come to smooth out the (dirt) floor to have a better field."

See also this post by Rabbi Doniel Neustadt, for particulars:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/kisavo.html

Kol Tuv,
Josh

[David Ben-Abraham]

B"H

Thanks, Rav Joshua!

I've been told that there is also a "girsa" in the Midrash Rabba (Lamentations Rabba) stating that the prohibition is mainly on account of playing ball on the Sabbath day - obviously for the reasons you stated. Yet, I can't help but believe that the prohibition is all inclusive, namely, to forbid also playing ball on week-days. The reason is quite simple. Our word for "sport" comes from the Greek word "Sparta." The Grecians had placed an emphasis on such bodily-oriented games, including ball playing. Now if the Rabbis spoke out adamantly against our attending threatres and circuses, etcetera, seeing that these practices were traditionally associated with the gentile world, how much more then in anything which seems to emulate "sport." Religious Jews simply did not engage in such things, seeing that their sole delight was the study of our laws. Of course, the Sabbath regulations add an addition dimension to this controversial subject, seeing that he stands to bring himself under the liability of the Court.

David

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

I think that a lot of what has been said here in this forum in general is misguided. But I know better than to start engaging in a dispute about it, the merits of ball play, and the psychological and hashkafic merits of giving kids a normal outlet for having fun, because such dispute would accomplish nothing.

So, without getting into a whole discussion of it -- let me just say that there were certainly gedolim, and great rabbis, who thought that children engaging in sports was good. Just two examples among many:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n247.shtml

"A friend of mine who was a counselor in Camp Aguda told me that the Bluzhever
Rebbe (who used to visit camp Aguda), used to sit at the sports fields and
just watch the kids play ball. When asked about this unusual behavior he told
them that the most difficult thing for him during the War and in the camps
was seeing the horrible conditions the poor "tyere yidishe kinderlach" had to
grow up in (if they had a chance to grow up) and it pained him to see that
they did not have a chance to run, laugh and play like normal children. He
therefore just sat and "shepped nachas" from seeing Jewish kids being normal
and playing in a beautiful outdoor setting and enjoying themselves. (The
Bluzhever was really an unusual human being).

...

And finally, the Artscroll R. Moshe book has a story where R. Moshe told a
class in MTJ that children should play ball but they must make sure to play
like yidden -- no cursing or fighting."

[David Ben-Abraham]

B"H

Rebbe Joshua,

I address this reply primarily to you, because of your recent remarks on this thread.

While no one denies that playing ball on the Sabbath is strictly forbidden (Lamentations Rabba 2:4) because of the likelihood of it being kicked beyond four cubits which, even in a Carmelit is forbidden by a rabbinic ordinance, playing ball on week-days (according to some Rabbis) is included under the prohibition not to resemble the goyim in their practices.

We cannot be ignorant of the fact that simply because there are some Rabbis who permit children to play with balls that it makes the practice acceptable. This reminds me of celebrating one's birthday with marked festivities, which, according to the teaching of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a sanctioned practice. Yet, when you look at our Midrashic literature, or even ancient Jewish historians such as Yosef Ben Mattithiah's "Against Apion", you will find that the practice of celebrating one's birthday was always strictly shunned by observant Jews, and seen as a thing associated with gentiles, just as it is written about Pharaoh and how that he would celebrate his birthday. You see, religious Jews of old never really celebrated their birthdays until very recently, especially in Yemen were birthday celebrations were never heard of at all! Of course, this did not mean that they did not take notice of their date of birth. Such dates were usually written on the inside covers of books.

Rabbi Yehiya b. Yehiya Omeissi, Av Beis-Din at the Court in Rada' (Yemen), the second most populous Jewish city in Yemen in the first-half of our last century C.E., viewed ball playing as a taboo practice, and as a violation of a biblical prohibition not to follow after the gentiles in their many and variegated practices - whether it meant in the way that they dress, or the way that they cut their hair, or in their recreational activities. We are different, and G-d wishes for us to remain different, set-apart as it were in our more and manners. Unfortunately, what has happened to us today, "Being long accustomed to seeing a certain thing makes the senses dull," or as they say in Hebrew:
ההרגל מקהה את הרגש

You and I both know that the Sages prohibit a woman to carry a rifle, as being a thing strictly associated with a man's accoutrement. Yet, in Israel, today, we see female soldiers carrying rifles and we think little of it. This is because our senses have become numb. It is the same with playing ball. In religious communities of not-so-long-ago, it was a thing unheard of that religious Jews would sally forth to play a game of ball. It just doesn't fit-in with our "make-up" or with what who we are as a people. These things are truly foreign to Judaism. It's unfortunate, in my mind, that there are some Rabbis who will teach otherwise, and give us the wrong impression about things that were once so very plain to all, and which Rabbi Omeissi tried so hard to convey to his proteges. I see their "heter" as, "new things that have come of late." (P. Ha'azinu) חדשים מקרוב באו

David

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

"according to some Rabbis"

is the key. this is a matter of machlokes. and while i respect your following of the positions of your own rabbis, I will still respect others following *their* own rabbis, who had contrary views. And those contrary views either came from a different reading of the sources, or from a different application of the sources to the specific metzius. I am *certain* Rav Moshe knew of all this, yet ruled differently. Rabbi Yehiya b. Yehiya Omeissi may have ruled otherwise, but this is *machlokes.* This is, perhaps, an eilu veEilu, rather than an opportunity to condemn those who take a different position, and it is a *methodological* point I am making here, rather than a point in how to interpret a specific source. Which is why I am not going to get into a debate about the particular sources, even though the sources themselves are debatable.

I will add that when I went to Ateres Yaakov, Rav Mordechai Kamenetzky (grandson of Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky) was involved in the administration, and during recess we played basketball in teams against one another. At one point, we even were bussed to a gym where we could play basketball. The same in the higher grades of my elementary school, where Rav Binyomin Kamenetzky (son of Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky) was in charge.

When gedolei hador (such as Rav Moshe et al) run a yeshiva and specifically allow their talmidim to play, yes, I would say it perhaps has the status of maaseh rav.

When you write
"This is because our senses have become numb. It is the same with playing ball. In religious communities of not-so-long-ago, it was a thing unheard of that religious Jews would sally forth to play a game of ball. It just doesn't fit-in with our "make-up" or with what who we are as a people."
This is, IMHO, an extremely subjective judgment call, which has more to do with religious attitude than religious law.

"religious communities of not-so-long-ago"
in the past generation in America, there were religious communities in which they played stickball.
When the Shulchan Aruch rules not to tell girls about the prohibition of playing ball in a chatzer (IIRC) because of mutav that they are shogegim, it is clear that in general this was a practice, to play ball. Perhaps in *your* religious communities of not-so-long-ago.

Kol Tuv,
Josh

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

Also, I am extremely reluctant to digress into the specifics as they are raised. But to cite Rabbi Chaim Tabasky:
https://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?cat=56
"It is true that the first and only birthday party mentioned in the Torah is Pharoh's. However, that doesn't make it prohibited. Rav Ovadiah Yosef (Yabia Omer Vol 6 OH 29) mentions several opinions that approved of birthday parties, especially if they include words of Torah and praise for Hashem. Rav Moshe Feinstein also mentions having a birthday party at home without disapproval. The Chatam Sofer felt it was improper to have a birthday party, but approved of a yearly celebration of the day of circumcision for a boy. (I am unaware if he talks about a girl.)

I am aware of Poskim dissaproving of parties that spend a lot of money and have no Torah content. I am not aware of a blanket prohibition."

And there is also this famous story (though I have never heard substantiation):
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/alport/archives/achrei67.htm
" In the interest of presenting a balanced perspective, it is interesting to conclude by relating that a Rabbi once said that when his wife was in seminary, the teacher was discussing the Jewish view of birthdays and presented the aforementioned non-Jewish origins of the concept.

One of the girls raised her hand and innocently protested, “But my Zeide sends me a birthday card every year!” The teacher obviously didn’t want to insult the girl’s grandfather and suggested that she should continue to enjoy them, but emphasized that the girls should understand that the idea of celebrating one’s birthday isn’t a Jewish tradition.

Undaunted, the girl pressed her point, arguing that “my Zeide surely knows what he’s doing, and if he sends birthday cards, it must be a Jewish custom!” The teacher felt bad for the girl, but once again reiterated her philosophical stance for the rest of the class. To her surprise, the girl exclaimed, “You don’t understand! My Zeide is Rav Moshe Feinstein!”"

Once again, this is a matter of machlokes. And certainly there are major poskim against as well, that it is a non-Jewish practice. But those who practice differently certainly have upon whom to rely.

Kol Tuv,
Josh

[David Ben-Abraham]

Rebbe Joshua,

Your references cited, at best, afford only prima facie evidence, that is to say, what might appear permissible at first view to someone unlearned, or rather, before serious investigation. But upon careful consideration of the subject, one would have to conclude that ball playing is foreign to Judaism; an imitation of things practised by the gentiles. Its popularity, however, can be explained this way: "But they have become mixed with the nations and have learned their ways." (Ps. 106: 35)
ויתערבו בגוים וילמדו מעשיהם
So it is with those who persist in this sordid practice.

As for birthday celebrations, it, too, is only a "new" practice and, therefore, no proof can be had by the sources you quoted as to its validity. If so, we can just blot out much of our oral tradition in this regard, and how the Sages viewed the celebration of one's birthday as a gentile practice. While this is a forum of ideas, the truth in all ofthese cases will no doubt prevail. Yosef ben Mattithiah wrote in "Against Apion," (Book II, vs. 26):

"Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make festivals at the births of our children, and thereby afford occasion of drinking to excess; but it ordains that the very beginning of our education should be immediately directed to sobriety…."
But I guess there has been fulfilled in this generation that dictum:

והאמת תהיה נעדרת


David

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

"Your references cited, at best, afford only prima facie evidence, that is to say, what might appear permissible at first view to someone unlearned, or rather, before serious investigation."

Simply put, this is because in the past I have argued the particulars on Global Yeshiva with various people, only to go around in circles or only to get nowhere. As such, I presented evidence that people who would be *aware* of the sources nevertheless ruled otherwise in *practice.*

I do believe that deep reading of the sources would justify ball playing in modern times. But based on multiple experiences here on Global Yeshiva in the past, I just as firmly believe that I would convince no one here with such a deep reading.

Just as an example (and to demonstrate that I have done some study of this topic), you talk above about the ban on "threatres and circuses" as something associated with the gentile world, and therefore extrapolate in general. While many understand this as an avoidance of moshav leitzim (/bittul Torah, rather than necessarily chukas akum), reading the gemara in Avodah Zarah about this together with some historical knowledge is helpful, in my opinion.

The circus, the theater, and the amphitheater in ancient times was a place of incredible gului arayos, avodah zarah, and shfichas damim.

To cite the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Word History: The modern circus owes its name, but fortunately not its regular program of events, to the amusements of ancient times. The Latin word circus, which comes from the Greek word kirkos, “circle, ring,” referred to a circular or oval area enclosed by rows of seats for spectators. In the center ring, so to speak, was held a variety of events, including chariot races and gladiatorial combats, spectacles in which bloodshed and brutality were not uncommon. The first use of circus recorded in English, in a work by Chaucer written around 1380, probably refers to the Circus Maximus in Rome. Our modern circus, which dates to the end of the 18th century, was originally an equestrian spectacle as well, but the trick riders were soon joined in the ring by such performers as ropedancers, acrobats, and jugglers. Even though the circular shape of the arena and the equestrian nature of some of the performances are carried over from its Roman namesake, the modern circus has little connection with its brutal namesake of long ago."

Indeed, I think it is helpful to read the gemara, with its various braytot etc. condemning the spectacles *together* with Tertullian's "On Spectacles." Tertullian (155 – 222 CE) was a church leader and prolific author of early Christianity. In "On Spectacles" he condemns the happenings in the theaters, amphitheaters, and says why one should avoid them. He explains what happened in these places. And in condemning it, he uses many of the same derashos Chazal use. See here:

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/tertullian_spectacles.htm

This is not the same as playing a game of basketball or stickball.

In the middle ages, the Jews often engaged in jousts as entertainment at weddings, and there is halachic literature (IIRC) discussing the fallout in terms of paying for injuries. And just because the Greeks engaged in it does not mean that they were exclusive in terms of that. Really off the top of my head,
http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/t/t08b02.htm#14
וַיֹּאמֶר אַבְנֵר, אֶל-יוֹאָב, יָקוּמוּ נָא הַנְּעָרִים, וִישַׂחֲקוּ לְפָנֵינוּ; וַיֹּאמֶר יוֹאָב, יָקֻמוּ.

The specifics of chukas akum and where it applies, and where it does not, are hairy, and may or may not apply. For example, I dress like gentiles of the late 20th century / early 21st century, as opposed to copying the dress of gentile Polish nobles from the 17th century and claiming it is not chukas akum. Do you have a zipper on your pants? Is this not "an imitation of things practised by the gentiles?"

In terms of birthdays, see this website. I know that you already know of the Lubavitch position.
http://www.sichosinenglish.com/essays/31.htm
But among the sources, it cites Midrash Sechel Tov (from 12th century Italy) which states that
"Most people cherish the day on which they were born and make a party on that day. (Midrash Sechel Tov, Bereishis 40:20)." Thus, to say that "when you look at our midrashic literature" it is shunned seems like possibly an overstatement. (though I have not yet seen this midrash inside.) Jewish practice does indeed develop. And not all of that development is evil.

On a peshat level, the fact that in the Bible, the only birthday mentioned was that of Pharaoh may be easily understood as being because that was the only birthday which was important for the flow of the narrative.

Josephus indeed says that people did not celebrate the birth of a child with festivals:
"Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make *festivals* at the *births* of our children, and thereby afford occasion of drinking to excess; but it ordains that the very beginning of our education should be immediately directed to sobriety."

And this may have reflected Pharisee practice in his days. But this a celebration at the *birth* of our children. Tell me, did you ever go to a Shalom Zachar? Why? Would you condemn drinking at a shalom zachar?

Meanwhile, I can attest that at my son's last birthday party (which is the *anniversary* of birth), we had cupcakes and juice for the kids and adults (family members). But not one of the toddlers or adults had a drop of schnapps.

But I do not wish to engage in a pointless back and forth. We both know that it will end in a stalemate, or finally one of us giving up in frustration.

______

Regardless, another facet of the issue of engaging in sports is the *metzius.* Kids in many cultures need to blow of steam, to compete, and so on. This is a psychological need. We want our kids to grow up normal, well-adjusted adults. Suppress them because of (real or imagined) problems of chukas Akum, such that they cannot have *fun* as kids, and it is (IMHO) a surefire recipe for "kids at risk," kids going off the derech, or kids with all sorts of emotional problems. Not every single child, but a whole lot of them. And that is surely something certain gedolim kept in mind together with weighing of the sources.

Kol Tuv,
Josh

[David Ben-Abraham]

In the beginning, you said that our postings in this regard were "misguided." Later, your tone was ameliorated somewhat and now you say that the matter is a "machalokes." Again now you seem to purport that playing ball is only a thing of "expediency," in order to allow children to blow-off steam.

Rebbe Joshua, by the dupes of words artfully framed, a man can convince a simpleton and rustic on just about any thing. But this, my friend, will not avail you in a matter as serious as this. If we were to examine the various commentaries given for that pasuk in Leviticus 18:3,
ובחוקותיהם לא תלכו
we would find that its definition is broad and encompasses a wide-range of customs that are associated strictly with the non-Jews – ranging from their dress codes to their civil laws of conduct. Sports are no exception. Onkelos (ibid.) gives us the Aramaic word נימוסיהון, meaning, "their customs; mores and manners."

We are not talking here about a secular Jewish society, but about a religious society. If we were to take Yemen as a minuscule example of a religious society, where ancient Jewish customs were still seen practised by Jews there as late as the last century C.E., such as the Aramaic translation (Targum) which was read aloud in their synagogues following the reading of each verse in the weekly biblical lection (Parasha), a practice long since abandoned by other communities, and where they donned their large talis (fringed shawls) above their tunics even when going out in public places, we can better understand, through them, what tradition might have been like for all Jews at one time. Few communities can claim an unbroken record of strict adherence to ancient Jewish custom and practice, as was bequeathed to us by our forefathers, as can the Yemenite Jews. All those who see them, and all who have ever heard of them, bear in their souls this testimony, viz., that they are the scion of an ancient stock, the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who have preserved for their posterity a pure and unadulterated form of Judaism.

Having said this, a very respectable Rabbi of theirs who has left us a worthy collection of Questions & Responsa addressed to the Court at San'a, besides being the chief Rabbi of his own community, a man steeped in Jewish tradition where matters long ago forgotten, or partially forgotten, by all other centres of world Jewry were still seen with them – such as their way of giving distinct sounds to the six double-consonants (ב-ג-ד כ-פ-ת) – he has said that ball-playing is an alien-practice infringing upon that Law in Lev. 18:3.

But if you should seek other proof, is it not sufficient what our Rabbis have said in their writings?

מאן דבעי חסידא ליעבד מילי דאבות.

"He that wishes to be pious, let him do the things their forefathers were known to do."

But you say, "No!" We all know that they would play soccer! Rebbe "Moyshe," the most austere of their Rabbis, wouldn't take-off his felt hat and tunic, being religious, but would nevertheless put-on a jersey over his own garment to show his respect for the game. Calling out for his co-religionists to join him, they'd all sally out into the soccer field to play an exhilarating game of football. Rebbe "Moyshe" and Rebbe "Yankale," and Rebbe "Duvid" with their fully grown beards, and little "Chaimke" with his dangling side-locks, whose reverent feet they'd dare not have seen shod with their shoes upon entering any synagogue (as is the custom of the Jews of Yemen, for up until their arrival in the land of Israel, the Jews of Yemen maintained an old custom all throughout their villages, towns and cities, viz., never to enter a synagogue while wearing one's shoes! This practice goes back to the time of Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi, and beyond. The Jerusalem Talmud, Baba Metzī‘a 2:8, brings down the following story: "Yehudah, the son of Rebbe, entered a synagogue and left his sandals [outside], and they were stolen. He then said, 'Had I not gone to the synagogue, my sandals would not have gone-off.' " ), these all donned a pair of Nike sporting shoes on this noble occasion, with cleats to provide them better traction! Then Rebbe "Moyshe" proceeded, as he was wont to do on such occasions, to pull up his long tunic to give his legs more freedom of movement in the playing field, exposing – may G-d forbid – his thighs which had never been seen before in public! And with a sprint like an athlete, he kicked the ball dead center into the goal, which thing brought him more joy and delight than the giving of the Torah at Sinai!

Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but I think my point is well-made. I will agree agree with you, however, that while ball-playing is not a bona fide Jewish practice, expediency has given rise to its popularity amongst the young today.

As for birthdays, Judaism does say, however, that one's birthday (i.e., the hour and day of the week, as well as in which month a man was born) plays an important role in that man's mazal (horoscope), and what things are likely to affect his life in the future. Of course, this is a science in itself, a subject too broad to engage in now.

I am still respectfully yours,
David

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

"In the beginning, you said that our postings in this regard were "misguided." Later, your tone was ameliorated somewhat and now you say that the matter is a "machalokes." Again now you seem to purport that playing ball is only a thing of "expediency," in order to allow children to blow-off steam."

1) In the beginning, I said that the postings were misguided. Part of that was the tone of the other poster, but part of that is that I think that practically, this is not the appropriate derech to take, and that the interpretation of the sources are incorrect.

2) However, rather than try to convince you that your reading, and your Yemenite posek, was wrong, I noted that different great rabbis take other positions and read the sources, and/or the situation differently. I said this in *the same comment.* The idea is that I am willing to allow you your reading, even though I think it is wrong and misguided. And similarly, you should allow these other rabbis their reading. And therefore, under respecting Elu veElu, you should not be issuing "warnings" on GlobalYeshiva telling people in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is wrong. And others should not be saying that people who play games are "of the Satan."

3) I did not go immediately to saying it is an expediency. You glossed over the step in which I showed an alternative interpretation of your sources. And in your reply, you did not address this. You wrote
"Now if the Rabbis spoke out adamantly against our attending threatres and circuses, etcetera, seeing that these practices were traditionally associated with the gentile world, how much more then in anything which seems to emulate "sport.""
But if the theaters and circuses were places of incredible barbarity, idolatry, and sex -- which they were, if you would read "On Spectacles" by Tertullian, and I gave you a link -- you would see that this kal vachomer you presented fails.

and so on and so forth. It certainly is convenient to pretend that I am now retracting, to say that it is only a matter of expediency. But it is not entirely intellectually honest. In that posting, I tried to show how the other rabbis, with whom you disagree, might understand the sources you believe are so clear at prohibiting all sport. Such that I would ask you to at the least respect it as a machlokes.

4) In terms of "expediency." This is as much a part of psak as any other. Whether it was Rabbi who allowed the writing of the Oral Law because of Eis Laasos LaHashem, or (IIRC also Rabbi) teaching Greek and using a mirror for those who had to interact with the malchus, at certain times one takes into account the actual metzius on the ground. Further, the impact on human beings is something that is to be taken into account in a psak. And many true gedolim understood this. My point here was that even *if* the sources were against it -- though I claim they are NOT -- the human impact is important in determining public policy. And furthermore, if it is a machlokes, and one has the choice between being machmir or being "meikil" -- understanding it one way or the other -- one should not just leap into the more machmir position just because it is more machmir, because there are other considerations in play.

Before replying to this, I beseech you you to follow this link, and read this article on Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz's website. Rabbi Horowitz deals with kids at risk. (I now see that the piece was written by Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum, zt"l.) Right now his website is down, so I am using a Google cache of his webpage:
http://tinyurl.com/6jsmdz

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

My reply was cut off, so I will continue here:

An excerpt:
"There was the famous Pirchei Choir that put out beautiful records and tapes that brought countless hours of delightful Jewish entertainment into thousands of homes. This was all done in order to keep children busy during their free time so they shouldn't have to go looking elsewhere. It was important to show children at a very early age that the Torah is not just restrictions, but that Shabbos as well as the rest of the week can be a time of constructive joy and pleasure. Happy laughter and family voices in the home will keep more kids off the streets at night than the strictest curfew.

I still remember when the Pirchei Agudas Yisrael put on a play and concert more than forty years ago in Montauk Junior High School. ( The play was based on the book Family Aguilar. ) There were some who tried to convince the rabbonim to put a ban on it. Since I was the president of Pirchei at the time, Rabbi Moshe Sherer z.l, asked me to go down to the venerable gaon hador, Rabbi Moshe Fienstien z.t.l., to get his halachic opinion. Not only did he not ban it, but he gave it his blessings. He understood only too well the importance of giving the boys a kosher alternative; otherwise they would soon find their pleasures elsewhere. One must be very careful before imposing restrictions. "Restrict everything and everything becomes permitted," is what my father z.t.l. once said. When some tried to ban the Miami Boys Choir Concert in N.Y. and tried to get Rabbi Pam z.t.l.s' signature as well as that of the Mirer Rosh Yeshiva to ban it, they both refused to sign."

But please read it all. This was, in part, what I meant by my appeal to expediency.

I don't know that I will bring myself to reply to the rest of your post. If not, please accept my apologies up front. I am not sure I have the time for a prolonged back and forth.

Kol Tuv,
Josh