After eating Fish, before eating meat

[Aryeh Leib]

I was told that we do eat or drink something between eating fish and meat. I also heard that one does not drink water before meat because fish live in the water.

I heard that this for reasons of health. I assume if did eat meat after fish it is not an aveira, if I am wrong please correct me.

I did some reasearch on this, there is no information outside the Torah that supports this view.

What is the source to this?

Also there is a minhag not to eat fish and cheese at the same time, any opinions about this?

[Rephoel]

There is a strong minhag not to cook or eat fish and meat together because of certain dangers. This does NOT make food or utensils non-kosher. One should eat or drink something between eating fish and meat (including poultry).Utensils used for fish or meat should be washed before using them for the other. There is no problem of using dairy utensils or dairy ingredients with preparing or eating fish.I do not off-hand know the sources but I know these are the accepted minhagim where I come from.Some of these minhagim are based on Kabboloh,and one does not do an aveirah by mixing them.I'm sure others will give more detailed sources and information.

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

Note that this is not intended as psak, but just an exploration of some of the issue. Consult your local Orthodox rabbi, or follow your local minhag.

In my specific community, the accepted practice is to use different plates and eating utensils for meat and fish, or else to wash them, and to do something to the mouth to clean it out in between, much like is suggested in the gemara in Chullin for after milk but before meat. The reason for meat and fish is indeed for health, which is why these halachic guidelines developed. Chamira Sakanta meiIsura, danger to health is treated more stringently than prohibition, so such measures are often even more stringent. Perhaps there may be a violation of making sure to stay healthy. Is this something to feel guilty about, if one did so accidentally? I wouldn't.

But you are correct in terms of that outside *modern* scientific opinion is that there is no such health risk. And this was noted by many poskim, some of whom uprooted the prohibition. Yet current practice in our communities is still to avoid it, and such is the minhag.

From way back when I was actively learning this, I seem to recall that there is one that says between milk and fish. But others claimed that this stemmed from a typographical error where meat was intended, and is against what was apparently a common practice to eat a certain fish and cheese dish on Purim. (But this is all working from memory.)

It is always good to see what Aruch haShulchan has on any issue, because he brings down all the sources and discusses them, in plain text rather than in hypertext that can you leaping all over the page.
ערוך השולחן אורח חיים סימן קעג סעיף ב

וכתב עוד דבין בשר לדגים חובה ליטול משום דקשה לצרעת וחמירא סכנתא מאיסורא וקצת ראיה לזה מפסחים [ע"ו:] והרמב"ם לא הזכיר זה וכתבו דעתה נשתנו הטבעים [מג"א] וגם התוס' ספ"ק דמועד קטן כתבו כעין זה ואנחנו אין אוכלים דגים אחר בשר רק בשר אחר דגים ושמענו שיש מקומות שאוכלין בשר ואח"כ דגים:
{My own comments in curly brackets}:
"and he {I think this refers to Shulchan Aruch} writes further that between meat and fish, there is an obligation to wash, because it {=mixing them} is bad for leprosy {or however we define tzaraat}, and danger to health is more stringent than prohibition. And there is something of a proof to this from Pesachim 76b. And the Rambam does not mention this {and thus does not bring it down lehalacha}. And they wrote that nowadays, the nature has changed (see Magen Avraham). And also Tosafot at the end of the first perek of Moed Katan writes something akin to this.
And we do not eat fish after meat, but only meat after fish {thus treating fish as if it were dairy}. And we have heard that there are places where they {do} eat meat and afterwards fish."

End quote.
Thus there are some big names that said there is no further problem with this. But there is a general issue and a bunch of varied approaches to how to approach nishtaneh hatevah, that the nature of reality changed. All these essentially map to the claim that Chazal were basing themselves on contemporary Greek science, which was wrong in many cases. Though instead the claim is that they were right at the time, but reality changed. (You see other, similar approaches, such as IIRC Rosh (on something else) that the impact of certain things depends on geographical location, and that in our geographical location, it is inapplicable. This works well with the original Greek science, such as Galen, who wrote such things as impact in different geographical locations.)

But then, there are other issues. Established custom. Discomfort with claiming that Chazal were wrong in matters of science (which this might amount to, depending on how you say it, and which in certain circles is considered heretical). That if you change this, what else will change. And the humility to realize that there might be some aspect this of which we are presently unaware, perhaps barely perceptible, since modern science is not on the lookout for specifically th

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

continuing where I left off:
since modern science if not on the lookout for specifically this issue. Finally, I would say that kabbalistic reasons might develop on top of existing practice (as they often do), and then people do not want to discard the practice even once the true reason is long gone.

This has applicability far beyond meat and fish. Can you eat garlic on erev Yom Kippur, or when sleeping overnight in your host's bedsheets? Metzitza in terms of circumcision, according to some, hinges on this. Drinking wine in pairs of cups, and so on.

The relevant gemara in Pesachim, by the way, is this:
תני רב כהנא בריה דרב חיננא סבא פת שאפאה עם צלי בתנור אסור לאכלה בכותחא ההיא ביניתא דאיטווא בהדי בישרא אסרה רבא מפרזיקיא למיכליה בכותחא מר בר רב אשי אמר אפי' במילחא נמי אסורה משום דקשיא לריחא ולדבר אחר:
"Rav Kahana the son of Rav Chinena the elder taught: Bread which was baked with roasted meat in an oven, it is forbidden to eat it with kutach {which is a milchig food}.
There was a fish which was roasted together with meat. Rava from Parzikia forbade it to be eaten with kutach.
Mar son of Rav Ashi said: Even with salt is also forbidden, because it is bad for one's smell, and also for something else.
{And commentators explain something else means leprosy.}"

[Rephoel]

Thank you for making this very clear You have the information that I remember learning,only expressed very well!

[Rephoel]

As a side point,does anyone forbid lox and cream cheese? That's fish with dairy.
Friday night Shabbos meals-we eat fish ,then have meat or chicken. (or soup made with that) The minhag is to drink some wine after the fish,or at least to eat a little challoh in between.It is also customary to rinse plates or forks if being used for meat if fish got spilled on them.

[Rabbi Joshua Waxman]

thanks for the compliment.

I think Sefardim have this custom of not eating fish and dairy together.

As a side point, the simple implication of the gemara in Pesachim cited above would appear to be that there is no problem of fish with dairy. That is, Rava of Parzikia only forbad fish which was roasted with meat to be eaten with kutach, . The implication of that is that, had it not been roasted with meat, it would be permitted to eat with kutach.

[Yisroel Phillips]

The minhag is to do both; drink something (a good excuse for a l'chayim!) and eat something like a piece of challah. This is referred to as "kinu'ach v'hadacha" - cleaning and rinsing

[Mark Fine]

First of all, most Sepharadim don't eat fish & milk, and they say indignantly that AShkenazim attribute this to a misreading of the Shulchan Oruch and it's commentaries. (Don't go for lox and bagels in Flatbush !! or in Israel in Sepharadi restauraunts )
Second, if we don't eat fish & meat together because of health reasons it would violate "guarding your health" to do so, and that IS an aveira. Also, once something is a minhag, it iS an aveira to violate it !!